i appreciate that...and i know all of it comes from your concern for me and your care for my well-being. but for all you have said, i'm still not convinced you have really heard what i'm saying.
i'm saying the church doesn't need a building. i'm saying the bride of Christ is not defined by a series of weekly events or building campaigns or tithing envelopes. i'm not saying those things are UNbiblical, i am just saying they are not biblical definition.
it seems to me that you want me to be part of a church building...one with multiple church-sanctioned events that meet during the week...one with sign up sheets for ministries that will "fill my bucket". i don't really get why...aside from the fact that it's how church has been done for years past.
again...i'm not saying the traditional church format is bad.
i think you think i've been injured to the point that i've sworn off church and can't stand the thought of it. i think you think i need healing, or for the bitterness to wear off and then i'll be able to become a member at another church. i think you're fighting to defend a template. and i'm not sure why.
i will say again, at the very core of who i am, i believe in the church. if i didn't, i wouldn't be so passionate about this. i just think it's time for a change. a never-go-back, start-from-scratch, redefine-everything-you-thought-you-knew change.
i want to be a part of church. not a place. not a set of doctrine. not a mess of politics. not a schedule that keeps staff from their families. not a program that was created for dramatic response. just people loving other people and learning to love Him. that's it. and if they have to meet in a building to do it, so be it. but not with all the mess that seems to go with the deed.
Merry Christmas 2018
7 years ago
3 comments:
Now I don't think you're hearing me! I am not implying that "church" can only happen within "church buildings". I am not implying that you can't be a good Christian without going to a "traditional church". Truthfully I have no problem with your stance except for two things:
1. You original comment about not wanting to "jump into another congregation hoping it will be different" sounds rather, well, 'final'. My challenge to you is not "go back to some form of church you hate" but rather don't discount the fact there are groups of believers who meet meet regularly, in buildings, and who do get it right. And you haven't been to every church there is, so, you can't argue that you will never find them. So, I'm only saying, don't give up. But even so, none should be expected to be perfect.
2. Many people I've met over the years who have given me this similar argument have drifted away from the church altogether - in any form. And almost nothing you're saying here is different from those arguments I've heard in the past. Sorry, it's true. (I can give names and references, and I'm old, so there are plenty!) I don't want this for you.
Jesus modeled everything you are saying - one on one relationships, personal witness to the 'world', etc. BUT, He also went to the Temple regularly and saw value in it. And you KNOW those people weren't perfect. And you know the Temple had regular meetings, organized events, building campaigns (yes!), and had the times been different, maybe they'd have tithing envelopes and bake sales. There are plenty of biblical references to the importance of these regular temple meetings. To deny that they have value to the believer (even you) today doesn't make sense.
You said:: "it seems to me that you want me to be part of a church building...one with multiple church-sanctioned events that meet during the week...one with sign up sheets for ministries that will "fill my bucket". i don't really get why...aside from the fact that it's how church has been done for years past."
Jesus was. There must be value in it, warts and all.
ALL I'm really saying is, don't give up the search. Even if it takes twenty years. And don't become one of my personal statistics.
That's all. I can be done if you want.
Interestingly enough, I actually agree with Tony. The more I read the Bible, the more I sort through my feelings about the church and where those feelings come from, and what my "ideal" church would look like, I realize that I WANT the flaws. The flaws mean that I get to come too.
You said " i don't think my standards are so impossible. i just want to see Jesus first. that's all. really." But that's the thing- that IS impossible. I wish I could put Jesus first. Even just for an hour at church on Sunday morning, or when we're sitting on my couch playing guitar.
It's only been a few months that I've been a part of a new congregation. To be honest, I don't think the church itself is all that different from the churches of our pasts. But I'm different. I see far more of my own flaws and errors in judgment, my own pride and attention-grabbing tactics then those of the people in leadership at my church. I often wonder how I would have responded to all of the....well, you know, everything...if it had been the me from now- does that make sense? Of course, I wouldn't be who I am now had all of that never happened....catch 22 I guess.
My point? I think you are more ready for church (traditional or otherwise) than you think. And more importantly, I think the church is ready for you. It's ready for your insight, your compassion, and your love for the church! The church NEEDS people who love it. Flaws and all.
This whole conversation was worth it just to see Cathi say: "I actually agree with Tony." I'm getting that on a tee-shirt.
TG
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